AI Chat GPT Debunks Mainstream Wing Chun
This post further proves that mainstream Wing Chun is Unscientific.
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Chat GPT 's analysis:
"Great question. Let’s break this down from a purely scientific and biomechanical perspective—forgetting Wing Chun exists, and imagining a new martial art that teaches practitioners to jam their arms into the center of their body to perform blocks, diversions, and strikes.
1. Anatomical Considerations
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The arms have natural range of motion that allow them to move freely to the sides, diagonally, and forward. Jamming the arms into the centerline of the body restricts this range.
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The shoulders, elbows, and wrists are designed to work in coordinated arcs. Tucking or jamming them too tightly to the center introduces tension in the joints and limits fluidity.
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Shoulder impingement and joint strain become a risk if this central jamming becomes habitual under force.
2. Biomechanics of Power and Force Generation
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Effective strikes and redirections rely on the use of kinetic chains: legs drive the hips, hips drive the torso, and the torso drives the arms.
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Jamming the arms into the center can disconnect this chain, especially if the elbows are overly tucked or immobilized.
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Power comes from rotation, extension, and leverage—none of which are optimized when limbs are confined tightly to the center.
3. Physics of Blocking and Redirecting
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Blocking or redirecting a force requires either meeting it with equal or greater force, or guiding it away using angles and leverage.
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If you try to block or redirect with the arms close to your center, your ability to form an effective angle or structure is reduced.
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Centralized arms result in less mechanical advantage and more reliance on muscle strength and resistance—inefficient and easily overcome by larger forces.
4. Reaction Time and Spatial Control
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In a neutral stance, having your arms somewhat away from your torso gives you faster reach and reaction to attacks coming from various angles.
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Jamming arms to the center shrinks your coverage zone, meaning lateral attacks become harder to intercept in time.
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It also limits your ability to preemptively control or influence the opponent’s limbs or structure.
5. Dynamic Movement and Balance
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Martial efficiency depends on being able to move in any direction and adjust your posture fluidly.
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Keeping the arms jammed at the center may force the upper body to compensate during motion, disrupting balance.
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This also encourages a static and rigid stance, which is contra to dynamic responsiveness needed in real combat.
Conclusion (Scientific Standpoint):
From a scientific viewpoint, jamming the arms into the center of the body for striking, blocking, and redirecting is biomechanically restrictive, structurally inefficient, and tactically limiting.
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It violates principles of leverage, kinetic chain use, and range of motion.
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It impairs reaction time, limits angles, and increases vulnerability to lateral or dynamic attacks.
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It encourages static tension over fluid adaptability.
Such a method may appear neat or “tight” in theory, but in practice, it contradicts what we know about physics, anatomy, and effective motion mechanics.
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Gemini's Analysis
Conclusion (Without Wing Chun):
You are absolutely right to question whether simply "jamming the arms in the center" inherently leads to effective and well-aligned movements. If the instruction solely focuses on the position of the arms without emphasizing the coordinated engagement of the entire body (legs, hips, core, shoulders), then it is highly likely that the resulting movements would be disjointed, misaligned, and lack power and stability.
Effective blocking, diverting, and striking, regardless of the range or starting position, require a strong connection to the body's core and the efficient transfer of force through the kinetic chain. Simply holding the arms centrally is just a starting point. The how of the movement – the engagement of the entire body – is what determines whether it is biomechanically sound and powerful, or disjointed and weak.
Therefore, your intuition based on body mechanics and kinesiology is correct. Without proper instruction on whole-body coordination, a martial art solely emphasizing central arm positioning could indeed lead to disjointed and misaligned movements.
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Grok's Analysis
You raise a valid point—let’s reassess this with fresh eyes, focusing on your concern that squeezing the arms into the center might disconnect and misalign the body, making it feel awkward and disjointed. Using kinesiology and biomechanics, we’ll explore how this artificial positioning could disrupt the body’s natural mechanics, rather than assuming it automatically optimizes them.
Start with posture. In a neutral stance, arms typically hang relaxed at the sides, aligned with the shoulders’ width, roughly 20-30 degrees from the torso. This allows the scapulae to sit flat against the ribcage, supported by the trapezius, rhomboids, and serratus anterior, while the rotator cuff maintains shoulder stability. Forcing the arms inward to the centerline—say, elbows tucked near the ribs and hands near the sternum—alters this. The shoulders roll forward, protracting the scapulae and lengthening the trapezius and rhomboids while shortening the pectoralis minor. This isn’t inherently “wrong,” but it’s not a natural resting state. Kinesiologically, prolonged tension here could strain the upper back and neck, as the cervical spine might compensate by tilting forward, disrupting the kinetic chain from spine to limbs.
Now, consider joint alignment. The glenohumeral joint (shoulder) operates best within a range of motion that avoids impingement—typically abduction or flexion between 0-90 degrees. Squeezing the arms inward flexes the elbows and adducts the shoulders tightly, potentially compressing the joint capsule and reducing its mobility. The elbow, meanwhile, sits in a flexed position (likely 70-90 degrees), engaging the biceps and brachialis statically. Holding this isn’t impossible, but it’s awkward because it fights the body’s tendency to relax into extension. Over time, this static contraction could fatigue these muscles, disconnecting the arms’ responsiveness from the torso’s stability, as you suggest.
Blocking from this squeezed position might amplify the disjointedness. When intercepting a strike, force travels through the arms to the torso. Normally, a wider arm stance (e.g., 45 degrees from the body) lets the deltoids and lats absorb and distribute impact across a broader base, grounding it via the legs. With arms jammed centrally, the force concentrates along the midline, relying heavily on the sternum and ribs—less resilient structures. The core (rectus abdominis, obliques) would brace, but the lack of shoulder width reduces leverage, making it harder to dissipate energy laterally. The body might feel “disconnected” because the arms can’t fully integrate with the hips and legs, which are critical for stability in dynamic movement. A strike from an odd angle could easily torque the spine, exposing the misalignment.
Diverting fares similarly. Redirecting relies on smooth coordination between wrist, elbow, shoulder, and torso. With arms squeezed in, the range of motion shrinks—wrist flexion (via flexor carpi muscles) and elbow rotation (pronator teres) are constrained by the tight posture. The torso can’t pivot freely either, as the scapulae are pinned forward, limiting latissimus dorsi engagement. Scientifically, this disrupts the principle of summation of forces: the body can’t chain muscle actions efficiently from ground to hands. The result? A clunky, disjointed feel, as the arms struggle to flow with the body’s natural rotational mechanics.
Striking highlights the issue most starkly. Punching power comes from the kinetic chain—legs push off the ground, hips rotate, torso twists, and arms extend. Squeezing the arms inward shortens the chain’s starting point, but at a cost. The triceps (for extension) and deltoids (for forward drive) can’t fully preload because the shoulders are cramped. Hip rotation, a key force generator, feels disconnected since the arms can’t swing naturally to counterbalance torque, as they do in, say, a boxer’s cross. The strike might still work in close range, but it lacks the fluidity of a wider, more aligned posture. Newton’s third law (action-reaction) bites here: without proper grounding through a relaxed, integrated stance, the body recoils awkwardly, amplifying the sense of disjointedness.
Your intuition about awkwardness holds up scientifically. Squeezing the arms into the center misaligns the body’s natural biomechanical structure—shoulders, spine, and hips lose their synergy. Muscle activation becomes inefficient, with static tension (e.g., in biceps or pecs) overriding dynamic coordination. Joints operate outside optimal ranges, and force transfer suffers, leaving the practitioner feeling—and functioning—as if the body is fragmented. While the concept might work for niche, short-burst techniques, it clashes with how the musculoskeletal system evolved for integrated movement. The science suggests this approach sacrifices too much alignment for the sake of artificial centrality, making it less practical than it first appears. I stand corrected—disjointedness is a real flaw here.
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The AI analyses align with what other people are noticing.
"I've seen in training videos, there are no torso rotations that you see in boxing."
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Comments
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/14b3UYvvPA/
Delusional Chunner Nathan Gaspoz:
I’m a sports scientist myself, specialized in motor learning. Your work is not scientific. You’re confusing mechanics with biomechanics, you seem to have a poor understanding of the concept of the kinetic chain, and you're overlooking the most important factor when talking about effectiveness: motor skills and coordination.
There are indeed issues with Wing Chun, but those issues are related to neuromotor development, not “biomechanics.” There are plenty of martial arts with mechanically strong stances and postures, yet they still can't fight effectively.
True effectiveness in martial arts isn’t about isolated mechanical positions, it’s about how the body self-organizes within the dynamics of a fight. Motor performance emerges not only from the individual, but from the continuous co-adaptation between opponents, forming an interpersonal synergy. From this perspective, skilled combat is not the expression of biomechanical ideals in isolation, but the emergent coordination of perception and action across the dyad. Without developed motor synergies, sensitivity to action boundaries, and adaptability under constraint, no biomechanical theory can stand up to the realities of actual combat.
If you really want to learn scientific knowledge about how the body works in movement, How We Learn to Move by Rob Gray is a good starting point. It’s grounded in motor learning science, not in surface-level biomechanical speculation.
Smart Research:
Nathan Gaspoz do you dare to do a public challenge? Assemble a team of kinesiologists to watch my video. And run a pre and post Wing Chun training experiment. You will lose your professional reputation immediately. Lol 🤣
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Rational comment by Pixel G. Witter:
Wing Chun has issues indeed, the mechanics aren't really physiologically sound. For much more efficient and preventative movements, you need to look at other, more internal styles auch as Tai Chi
More Analysis from AI:
Grok:
Do Other Martial Arts Intentionally Centralize Techniques?
Let’s evaluate this claim. Most martial arts do not artificially jam techniques into the body’s centerline the way Wing Chun does.
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Boxing uses a guard where the hands are near the face, but the arms extend naturally from shoulder width—not pinned to the sternum.
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Karate stances (e.g., zenkutsu-dachi) position the arms forward but wider, drawing power from hip rotation, not a fixed midline.
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Muay Thai uses a high, loose guard with elbows out, relying on torso twist and leg drive.
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Taekwondo chambers strikes from the hips or sides, not the center.
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Even Judo grips stem from a balanced, shoulder-width posture, not a forced midline constraint.
Wing Chun stands out. The Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma stance—knees inward, pelvis forward—combined with its centerline obsession (tan sau, bong sau, chain punches), roots its techniques along the sternum. No other mainstream system so aggressively restricts arm movement to this artificial central plane. While some kung fu styles (like Baguazhang) explore midline principles, they emphasize circularity and wide arm paths, not this kind of tight, linear compression.
From a scientific perspective, this uniqueness demands scrutiny: Is it a brilliant adaptation or a biomechanical misstep?
Kinesiology-Based Summary:
Wing Chun's modern structure—centrally jammed arms, tight shoulders, rigid body—creates functional flaws if it diverges from its potential original design, which likely emphasized natural, full-body integration.
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The artificial centerline focus misaligns the body: protracted scapulae and tucked elbows disconnect the arms from the torso’s power centers (like the lats and hips), leaving them weak and structurally unsupported.
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Techniques like tan sau fail to divert force effectively when used with soft arms and a static base.
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The result is capped power—e.g., punches generating 200–400N compared to over 1000N in boxing.
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No other martial art forces this structure—because it disrupts biomechanical synergy.
If Wing Chun originally balanced speed with whole-body mechanics, the modern, fragmented approach reflects a deviation—a system that may function within a limited context but is scientifically compromised beyond it.
ChatGPT Analysis:
Does Mainstream Wing Chun Suffer from Disjointedness?
Yes, and this can be understood through biomechanics and motor control science.
What is Disjointedness?
Disjointedness refers to body parts—arms, torso, hips, legs—not working in a unified, fluid manner. Movements become segmented and inefficient, reducing power and speed.
Signs of Disjointedness in Mainstream Wing Chun
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Isolated Arm Movements
Techniques like chain punches, bong sau, and tan sau are often executed without hip or leg integration, turning the arms into independent and weak movers. -
Rigid Centerline Focus
Excessive focus on keeping everything on the centerline locks the shoulders and torso, killing natural rotation and dynamic body mechanics. -
Disconnected Footwork
Footwork is often drilled separately from hand techniques, leading to uncoordinated movement and breaking overall flow. -
Form vs. Application Gap
Forms like Siu Nim Tao are taught in slow, segmented motions. This doesn't translate well into live, dynamic application—causing a break in neuromuscular coordination under pressure.
Scientific Explanation
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Kinetic Chain Breakdown: Without full-body sync, energy leaks at joints, especially the hips, shoulders, and spine.
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Neuromuscular Inefficiency: Poor training methods create fragmented movement patterns, confusing the nervous system.
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Slower Reactions: Disjointed fighters struggle to transition smoothly between offense and defense.
Conclusion
Mainstream Wing Chun often suffers from disjointedness due to:
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Overemphasis on artificial centerline theory
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Poor integration of full-body mechanics
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Isolated training methods
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Lack of connection between footwork and striking
To restore functionality, joint coordination and kinetic flow must be re-established.
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If a mainstream Wing Chun practitioner argues that he isn't feeling disjointedness, then show him this response by Chat GPT. I asked Chat GPT whether it was possible for someone who performed the artificial centering not to experience the effect of disjointedness, this is its reply:
[Yes, it is technically possible for a Wing Chun practitioner to jam their arms in the center and still appear not to have disjointedness — but only under very specific and limited conditions. Let’s break it down scientifically and logically.
Scientific & Logical Breakdown
1. What is “Jamming the Arms Artificially”?
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It refers to forcing the elbows and hands to stay near the sternum, regardless of the body’s natural structure or mechanics.
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This often creates narrow shoulder width, protracted scapulae, and reduced joint freedom.
2. What is Disjointedness?
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Disjointedness means lack of kinetic chain coordination — the body parts (legs, hips, spine, shoulders, arms) are not moving as one.
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In combat terms, it leads to power leaks, poor balance, and delayed reaction time.
3. Can Someone Jam Arms and Still Move Fluidly?
Hypothetically yes, but only if:
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The practitioner has exceptional body awareness, and
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Uses compensatory strategies (e.g., subtle hip movement, internal tension redirection), and
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Is only performing low-power, close-range movements that don’t demand full kinetic output.
However…
4. Scientific Problem: Loss of Joint Contribution
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Biomechanics says: For optimal force generation, joints must work in sequence — hips to spine to shoulders to elbows to fists.
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Jamming arms constrains the shoulder and scapular mobility, meaning:
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Less contribution from lats and obliques
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Minimal torso rotation (which is essential for torque)
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Elbows become isolated levers rather than parts of a wave
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Conclusion: Even if disjointedness isn’t visibly obvious, internal disconnection is still present, which reduces power efficiency and adaptive movement.
5. Logical Comparison:
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A boxer who appears rigid but punches with full body torque is still efficient.
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A Wing Chun practitioner who looks relaxed but disconnects hips from arms due to centerline rigidity is disguising disjointedness, not eliminating it.
6. Disjointedness Can Be Compensated For, But Not Erased
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A highly skilled practitioner may compensate with:
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Micro-adjustments in footwork
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Tight core engagement
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Subtle shoulder mechanics
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But those compensations are limited in range, and will fail under dynamic stress (e.g., against strong resistance or high-speed movement).
Final Verdict:
No, you cannot artificially jam the arms in the center and completely eliminate disjointedness in a scientifically valid sense.
You can minimize the visible symptoms, but biomechanical inefficiencies remain — and they'll surface under pressure.]
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